SilverCreator Plaza - SilverCreator v1.6b2 Release

KungFuFurby AKA Furby2010

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Re: SilverCreator v1.6b2 Release
Reply #15 - Jun 21^st, 2009 at 2:53pm

I use a 1.8 PowerPC G5 these days.

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« Last Edit: Jun 21^st, 2009 at 2:53pm by KungFuFurby AKA Furby2010 »

This furby is active starting 2005. His company is called Kung Fu Furby Industries.
If you're thinking about developing a game, I'll get going on that right away! It'll take a while, but I can get the job done on the coding, execpt for network programming.
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Plaza Mike

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Re: SilverCreator v1.6b2 Release
Reply #16 - Jun 21^st, 2009 at 4:03pm

Plaza Redd wrote on Jun 21^st, 2009 at 2:06pm:

Plaza Mike wrote on Jun 21^st, 2009 at 1:54pm:

Plaza Redd wrote on Jun 20^th, 2009 at 6:42pm:

The editor's overall performance is slower than 1.5, it's like I'm running the app using Rosetta. *cringe*

Older projects seem to work fine so far. I'll come up with something new and irrational and see how it works out. That sprite(sheet) clipping code would help speed things up though.

Right now (at this moment - this is not my laptop) I am on a 2 GHz MacBook Core 2 Duo with 2 GB RAM. The editor runs very well in Rosetta. What PPC Mac are you using?

That's just it, nowadays there shouldn't be an application that needs Rosetta to run.

I'm on an iMac 2GHz Intel Core 2 Duo with 3 GB RAM.

The drawing tools are visibly slower than 1.5, that's for sure. And it takes longer for 1.6b2 to open than 1.5. :/

I thought you were on a PPC. Maybe if I didn't need to use an awful ass version of REALbasic to compile Universal then it would be Universal already. What's the newest version of RB that you have yourself?

The drawing tools are just fine on this MacBook. The app launches in less than 4 bounces. I also have v1.5 here and if you haven't noticed, v1.6 has nice new anti-aliased tools compared to v1.5 so of course the drawing is going to be slower.

v1.5 launches maybe half a bounce faster than v1.6. It's a minor difference.

Every version of RB is slower than the last so if I compile with RB 2007 or whatever does Universal it will speed up Intel and then screw over PPC. If I have separate versions then it would just bloat the size up insanely. It's just a huge mess and Universal will not happen for v1.6 because I'm going to have to waste an entire version number just dicking around with RB. The only feature in v1.7 will be Universal just to get people to shut up about it.

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Re: SilverCreator v1.6b2 Release
Reply #17 - Jun 21^st, 2009 at 4:33pm

Plaza Mike wrote on Jun 21^st, 2009 at 4:03pm:

I thought you were on a PPC. Maybe if I didn't need to use an awful ass version of REALbasic to compile Universal then it would be Universal already. What's the newest version of RB that you have yourself?

2009 Release 2.1

Plaza Mike wrote on Jun 21^st, 2009 at 4:03pm:

The drawing tools are just fine on this MacBook. The app launches in less than 4 bounces. I also have v1.5 here and if you haven't noticed, v1.6 has nice new anti-aliased tools compared to v1.5 so of course the drawing is going to be slower.

Actually anti-aliasing or not, it doesn't greatly affect speed at all. It's only a matter of using the UseOldRenderer command. The fake version of SC I did some time ago proves it:
http://chirei.net/SC16a1.zip

It's there only because I forgot to delete it from the site's directory.

Plaza Mike wrote on Jun 21^st, 2009 at 4:03pm:

v1.5 launches maybe half a bounce faster than v1.6. It's a minor difference.

Every version of RB is slower than the last so if I compile with RB 2007 or whatever does Universal it will speed up Intel and then screw over PPC. If I have separate versions then it would just bloat the size up insanely. It's just a huge mess and Universal will not happen for v1.6 because I'm going to have to waste an entire version number just dicking around with RB. The only feature in v1.7 will be Universal just to get people to shut up about it.

I don't have your experience with RB, but I have yet to witness this slowness you're talking about. :/

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Re: SilverCreator v1.6b2 Release
Reply #18 - Jun 21^st, 2009 at 6:16pm

Plaza Redd wrote on Jun 21^st, 2009 at 4:33pm:

Plaza Mike wrote on Jun 21^st, 2009 at 4:03pm:

I thought you were on a PPC. Maybe if I didn't need to use an awful ass version of REALbasic to compile Universal then it would be Universal already. What's the newest version of RB that you have yourself?

2009 Release 2.1

And you own that version legitimately? I will not compile SilverCreator for main distribution with an illegal copy of RB. I may create testing versions though.

Plaza Redd wrote on Jun 21^st, 2009 at 4:33pm:

Plaza Mike wrote on Jun 21^st, 2009 at 4:03pm:

The drawing tools are just fine on this MacBook. The app launches in less than 4 bounces. I also have v1.5 here and if you haven't noticed, v1.6 has nice new anti-aliased tools compared to v1.5 so of course the drawing is going to be slower.

Actually anti-aliasing or not, it doesn't greatly affect speed at all. It's only a matter of using the UseOldRenderer command. The fake version of SC I did some time ago proves it:
http://chirei.net/SC16a1.zip

It's there only because I forgot to delete it from the site's directory.

Guess what? That version runs at almost the same speed as my SC v1.6b2 running in Rosetta.

Plaza Mike wrote on Jun 21^st, 2009 at 4:03pm:

v1.5 launches maybe half a bounce faster than v1.6. It's a minor difference.

Every version of RB is slower than the last so if I compile with RB 2007 or whatever does Universal it will speed up Intel and then screw over PPC. If I have separate versions then it would just bloat the size up insanely. It's just a huge mess and Universal will not happen for v1.6 because I'm going to have to waste an entire version number just dicking around with RB. The only feature in v1.7 will be Universal just to get people to shut up about it.

I don't have your experience with RB, but I have yet to witness this slowness you're talking about. :/

Have you used REALbasic 5.5.5 and actually compared it to REALbasic 200x when working on a large project like SilverCreator? It's awful. It makes me want to cut myself.

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Re: SilverCreator v1.6b2 Release
Reply #19 - Jun 21^st, 2009 at 7:27pm

Universal support is a feature that will be included to 'shut people up'?

That's not the spirit. Universal is important. Perhaps SilverCreator works just fine on your Mac with it's hearty clock speed and jumbo-sized RAM, but on the lower spec machines, they don't fare as well as they ought to.

Bear in mind that most people who buy Macs are either die-hard fans or new users. The former opt for the bigger, beefier machines. The latter go for the budget models which don't perform as well. I'm a die-hard Mac fan, but I'm broke, so I get stuck with a lower spec machine.

I could always dig out the Powerbook G4 which seems to outperform my Intel machine, but the charger blew thanks to Apple's new design policy.

"Yeah, we'll have more processor speed, bigger memory ceilings, better GUI - but reliability and product lifespan, that's just simply got to go."

I'm not in the mood for an Apple-related politics discussion, but my main point is to remember the people who DON'T have the same machines that you have. Four bounces to you may be 23 to most other people. The ability to run an application that's native to the physical processor would be a big change.

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Plaza Mike

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Re: SilverCreator v1.6b2 Release
Reply #20 - Jun 21^st, 2009 at 8:34pm

Telstar5 wrote on Jun 21^st, 2009 at 7:27pm:

Universal support is a feature that will be included to 'shut people up'?

That's not the spirit. Universal is important. Perhaps SilverCreator works just fine on your Mac with it's hearty clock speed and jumbo-sized RAM, but on the lower spec machines, they don't fare as well as they ought to.

Bear in mind that most people who buy Macs are either die-hard fans or new users. The former opt for the bigger, beefier machines. The latter go for the budget models which don't perform as well. I'm a die-hard Mac fan, but I'm broke, so I get stuck with a lower spec machine.

I could always dig out the Powerbook G4 which seems to outperform my Intel machine, but the charger blew thanks to Apple's new design policy.

"Yeah, we'll have more processor speed, bigger memory ceilings, better GUI - but reliability and product lifespan, that's just simply got to go."

I'm not in the mood for an Apple-related politics discussion, but my main point is to remember the people who DON'T have the same machines that you have. Four bounces to you may be 23 to most other people. The ability to run an application that's native to the physical processor would be a big change.

Reboot your Mac, and then load SilverCreator. It should load faster with all the free memory available.

You just plain need more memory. I'm sorry you can't afford it, but more memory would speed up a lot of things, not just Rosetta programs. It would turn your slow Mac into a reasonably fast Mac.

What Mac and amount of memory do you have anyway?

As for Universal - there's too many people bitching about PPC apps, just because they're not Universal and they're not really even having a slowdown or anything. Back in the OS 9 days nobody cared if a simple app was 68K or PPC. SimpleText was actually never ported to PPC and neither were several bits of the OS. For example the OS 9 version of GM Online was a 68K app because it was smaller, and also still worked on 68K Macs so it was a dual benefit. Nobody noticed or cared.

It's like the Carbon vs Cocoa guys. I used to build OS X apps (Spy mostly since that got a lot of coverage) so well back in 2004 and stuff that people thought they were Cocoa apps. I would tell them it is a Carbon app and maybe about 1 out of 10 who replied back would tell me Spy sucks and they're gonna stop using it and switch to a shittier app, just because it was Cocoa.

Universal support will come to SilverCreator in due time, if I decide to continue it past v1.6. I receive no monetary compensation for SilverCreator. My only satisfaction is in the delight that I take from creating and solving problems (coding) and providing people with the tools to achieve what they could not do so before.

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« Last Edit: Jun 21^st, 2009 at 8:59pm by Plaza Mike »

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Re: SilverCreator v1.6b2 Release
Reply #21 - Jun 22^nd, 2009 at 8:08am

Plaza Mike wrote on Jun 21^st, 2009 at 6:16pm:

And you own that version legitimately?

Yes, it's what I'm sticking with until I can shell out another 79 Euros for an upgrade. And since school is in the near future it's going to be a long time.

Plaza Mike wrote on Jun 21^st, 2009 at 6:16pm:

Guess what? That version runs at almost the same speed as my SC v1.6b2 running in Rosetta.

If you say so. :/

Plaza Mike wrote on Jun 21^st, 2009 at 4:03pm:

v1.5 launches maybe half a bounce faster than v1.6. It's a minor difference.

[quote author=5451585C5B350 link=1245385602/18#18 date=1245626185]Have you used REALbasic 5.5.5 and actually compared it to REALbasic 200x when working on a large project like SilverCreator? It's awful. It makes me want to cut myself.

I only really started using RB in 2007, back then it was demo versions and what I could get on LimeWire.

I guess it depends on what we grow accustomed to in the first place.

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Re: SilverCreator v1.6b2 Release
Reply #22 - Jun 22^nd, 2009 at 4:29pm

Plaza Redd wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2009 at 8:08am:

I only really started using RB in 2007, back then it was demo versions and what I could get on LimeWire.

I guess it depends on what we grow accustomed to in the first place.

Try downloading REALbasic 5.5.5 (I'll probably have to upload it somewhere as RS has quashed all of their downloads for old versions). However, due to you being on Intel, the newer 200x will probably run faster than 5.5.5.

However, on my G5, the difference is astounding, just in speed and stability. The window editor is instant, for example. In 200x it's more like "move the button, take a nap. change the caption, take a nap."

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Re: SilverCreator v1.6b2 Release
Reply #23 - Jun 22^nd, 2009 at 5:46pm

Plaza Mike wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2009 at 4:29pm:

Try downloading REALbasic 5.5.5 (I'll probably have to upload it somewhere as RS has quashed all of their downloads for old versions). However, due to you being on Intel, the newer 200x will probably run faster than 5.5.5.

However, on my G5, the difference is astounding, just in speed and stability. The window editor is instant, for example. In 200x it's more like "move the button, take a nap. change the caption, take a nap."

It's actually the other way round for me! XD

On my end, 1.6b2 takes three or four bounces to load whereas my version launches instantly. I think Rosetta is what slows SC (or any other PPC app) on Intel.

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Re: SilverCreator v1.6b2 Release
Reply #24 - Jun 22^nd, 2009 at 7:46pm

Plaza Redd wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2009 at 5:46pm:

Plaza Mike wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2009 at 4:29pm:

Try downloading REALbasic 5.5.5 (I'll probably have to upload it somewhere as RS has quashed all of their downloads for old versions). However, due to you being on Intel, the newer 200x will probably run faster than 5.5.5.

However, on my G5, the difference is astounding, just in speed and stability. The window editor is instant, for example. In 200x it's more like "move the button, take a nap. change the caption, take a nap."

It's actually the other way round for me! XD

On my end, 1.6b2 takes three or four bounces to load whereas my version launches instantly. I think Rosetta is what slows SC (or any other PPC app) on Intel.

So for you, 5.5.5 is slower?

How much memory do you have?

Also, try finding an old copy of 2005 or 2006 (but not r4 since that one is Universal). Compare it to 5.5.5. Both would be on Rosetta so it would be a fairer comparison.

Rosetta may increases the number of bounces to launch, because that is the time when Rosetta is quickly converting the code from PPC to Intel. Much of this conversion happens in memory. If you don't have enough memory, it starts paging to disk. You might as well go take a nap at this point. If SC launches in 4 bounces on an Intel Mac, then the conversion is in memory. If SC launches in 23 bounces on an Intel Mac, you need more memory.

What I really need myself is an old copy of 2006r4. This is the very first version to support Universal so it's going to have the least extra bullshit in it compared to 2007 or later. It could also have bugs so I might need to try 2007r1 as well.

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Re: SilverCreator v1.6b2 Release
Reply #25 - Jun 23^rd, 2009 at 8:14am

Plaza Mike wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2009 at 7:46pm:

So for you, 5.5.5 is slower?

Any PPC app is slower than its universal counterpart.

Plaza Mike wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2009 at 7:46pm:

How much memory do you have?

Free disk space? Just over 30 gigs

Plaza Mike wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2009 at 7:46pm:

Also, try finding an old copy of 2005 or 2006 (but not r4 since that one is Universal). Compare it to 5.5.5. Both would be on Rosetta so it would be a fairer comparison.

Rosetta may increases the number of bounces to launch, because that is the time when Rosetta is quickly converting the code from PPC to Intel. Much of this conversion happens in memory. If you don't have enough memory, it starts paging to disk. You might as well go take a nap at this point. If SC launches in 4 bounces on an Intel Mac, then the conversion is in memory. If SC launches in 23 bounces on an Intel Mac, you need more memory.

What I really need myself is an old copy of 2006r4. This is the very first version to support Universal so it's going to have the least extra bullshit in it compared to 2007 or later. It could also have bugs so I might need to try 2007r1 as well.

I'm trying to run applications with and without Rosetta.

TextEdit launches after two bounces (instantly without conversion), inputting text is delayed.

Toast launches after nine bounces (compared to three), controls are delayed.

Yahoo! Messenger takes nine bounces to launch (two without conversion), all commands delayed.

Photobooth takes 15 bounces to launch (two without conversion), 30 seconds to load the photo library (instantly without Rosetta), iSight turned on, picture not showing.

It's Rosetta's fault. Sad

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John Jakovs Senior Member Offline In Soviet Russia, YaBB 2.4 loves you! Posts: 309 Gender:	Re: SilverCreator v1.6b2 Release Reply #26 - Jun 23^rd, 2009 at 11:14am In the future, will it be possible for SilverCreator to hide the top menu bar as well?
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Plaza Mike YaBB Administrator Offline Posts: 1669 Gender:	Re: SilverCreator v1.6b2 Release Reply #27 - Jun 23^rd, 2009 at 3:25pm John Jakovs wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2009 at 11:14am: In the future, will it be possible for SilverCreator to hide the top menu bar as well? SC v1.6b3 already has that.
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Plaza Mike YaBB Administrator Offline Posts: 1669 Gender:	Re: SilverCreator v1.6b2 Release Reply #28 - Jun 23^rd, 2009 at 3:26pm Plaza Redd wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2009 at 8:14am: Plaza Mike wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2009 at 7:46pm: How much memory do you have? Free disk space? Just over 30 gigs No - how much RAM Memory do you have? NOT Hard drive. Also, check your swaps in Activity Monitor.
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Re: SilverCreator v1.6b2 Release
Reply #29 - Jun 25^th, 2009 at 4:45am

Plaza Mike wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2009 at 3:26pm:

Plaza Redd wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2009 at 8:14am:

Plaza Mike wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2009 at 7:46pm:

How much memory do you have?

Free disk space? Just over 30 gigs

No - how much RAM Memory do you have?

NOT Hard drive.

Also, check your swaps in Activity Monitor.

Nevermind, you said you had 3 GB.

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